Bill Cummings on Relationships, Partnerships and Purpose-Driven Work

RJ Caswell: Well, welcome back to Cereal for Dinner. I'm Super excited to have a long time friend on for this episode, Bill Cummings. And Bill, thank you for being here with me here on this episode. And as I tee this up for you. You sent me your bio. And what I loved about your bio was, and everybody does this for me. You didn't mention... anything about your titles. And you've had impressive titles, executive director, founder, executive pastor, now CEO, which I think we'll touch probably towards the end of this podcast. But I'm going to read what you wrote to me because I want other people to hear this. I just thought it was beautiful. When You emailed me and said, hey, here's a short bio you can use for this. And this is what it says. Bill loves building meaningful relationships and partnerships. With the hope that people's lives are made better in the process now I would say let's unpack that, because that might take a long time. But Tell me a little bit. How did you land on that? I mean, that's so cool and it's beautiful to me. Bill Cummings: Yeah, I mean, yeah, I think it. I haven't thought about how I landed on it. So it's a good. And I think that's just. The natural outflow of how I... see Myself... We all have to make a living, of course, you know. But. If I could do anything. That didn't require getting paid, it would be building relationships. It would be meeting people. Having meaningful conversations. I'm the kind of person that if I sense openness from another person, We can be having a... Fairly deep conversation within two minutes you know you get niceties. And I'm just not a small talk kind of a guy like a the weather and all that kind of stuff. I'll I'll do it when it's, you know, and when it's appropriate or it's, you know, needed or required. But I just love diving deep and like tell me about your life tell me about your story I'm super curious I've always I don't know why I've always been curious since I was a little kid So, yeah, just like. Just a desire to know and probably a desire to be known as well, or to feel seen. And be heard and Yes, I think. RJ Caswell: I think some of those are those all the, some of those are those. Common conditions for all of us, known and be known. And what I do know about you is that word curiosity. So I love you know, including that piece in that. Great job, but I'm going to use that as a springboard because you used a word in that sentence partnerships. And I know that's something you've been involved in as long as I've known you. But honestly, longer than I've known you, I think partnerships has driven a lot of who you are. So, in fact, I know you started an entire... international nonprofit based on partnerships. And they're hard, right? Partnerships are hard. They're beautiful. They're difficult. They're painful. Tell me a little bit about... In your thoughts, in your history, in your experience. For partnerships, when did they work really well? And what are things that cause... Something to unravel. Bill Cummings: Yeah. Well... I mean, before I even get into the more detailed detailed response to your question, I think to me, I'm a person like words matter, like the words we use really matter. And I think the word partnership often gets kind of tossed around. For in ways that are just not. Not as significant as really the word really can should convey like oh we're partnering and we're partnering on this thing and hey they're a partner people call you know some companies call clients or customers our partners and it's like do you really mean that is this really like we're really in this together So I don't I don't use that word lightly at all and there is kind of like a life story life you know kind of trajectory that caused me to feel or be inclined to pursue. Partnerships and some of it comes from like going through some of life alone and feeling like you know there weren't There weren't real partnerships. You know I'm reminded of a time I was serving as an executive pastor at a growing church in Eastern Pennsylvania. And I was probably like eight years into my career. I became a pastor before anybody should be allowed to be a pastor. You know, in my early 20s, I'm like, I'm just figuring myself out and you know. So but in the first like eight years just growing church just head spinning trying to just keep everything together And I remember driving down the highway. And In thinking. Man, if something happened to me or my family in the middle of the night and I needed to call somebody. Who would I call? Like... Who? Who? Who could I call that would respond to me as Bill and not Pastor Bill? You know ton I think a lot of people out of respect for my role would have responded, oh, Pastor Bill needs help. But who would respond if it was just Bill? you know So is this what? RJ Caswell: And I do think, I just want to pause there. I do think there's right uniqueness because we both have a shared experience of working on a church staff. Which can be beautiful and rewarding, but it also comes with challenges that I don't think anybody explains to you before you're on that church staff and I think The crux of it is you just hit it. It's that known and be known. Am I known for me as a... person. Or am I known for me in my position? And even hearing you tell that story of I'm driving down, would anybody know me and my family? As not as part of Connected. What a question at an early age in your career too. Bill Cummings: Yeah. Yeah, for sure. And yeah I can bring myself right back. I know remember what car I was driving, you know just what the weather was like in And I don't have that kind of memory like that's I'm not a person who has a really good memory or recall But that just stood out to me And I think within a few days, there was this guy named Darian that was a part of our church. He was a leader but a lay leader in the church. And I just really felt this connection with him and I was And I went and told him that story. And I was like. Hey man, like... it was almost like being a kid on the playground can we be friends you know yeah And would you would you be okay with just calling me Bill and not Pastor Bill, you know? And I don't know if that's exactly how the conversation went, but that's you know like kind of the gist of it. And that started a friendship of... you know Darian he knows the day and the hour he's like he's got a great memory like I think we're close to 30 years of friendship where best friends and learning so much from each other. And then from then on, it was like. Man, like we need each other in life, you know? So I think that was the beginning of the real like a draw toward. Like man I want to work with other people and learn from them them learn from me Even in our work in Guatemala is like, you know, we're serving. We were funding a local leader who was doing work, and you know and you were you've you've been there. You've seen it you know yourself and The... in an urban settlement community and in extreme poverty and People living in 8x8 you know, houses with corrugated tin walls and you know dirt floors and I learned a lot from those families those individuals you know so there's this sense of like Bye. I need you need me you know we all really I mean it sounds like kumbaya but like we truly need each other in life you know RJ Caswell: So. Coming back to, and not like a specific example. But... When you look at those partnerships, whether individual friendships or... organizational partnerships. What are the elements that you think really take... That or need to be there to... have a chance at success. Bill Cummings: Yeah. Yeah, I think openness, listen listening. You know, just curiosity again you know you say curiosity is a great thing it can be it can be a dangerous thing too the old saying curiosity curiosity killed the cat I don't know how that's probably dating myself with that With that, I haven't heard anybody say that in a long time. But yeah I think curiosity listening seeking you know to understand So that there's... Like a... foundation to whatever partnership may develop. I think it takes time. I remember the local leader that who led the, you know, foundation in Guatemala that we supported and funded she had a like a wooden you know, plaque or something on her in her living room or in her dining room. And it said, it takes a long time to make old friends. And I was like. Oh man, you know like you to be able to say oh this is an old friend of mine well that takes time And I think the same is true with partnerships. It takes Quality time. You know spending time together and even like and if it's going to be more of an organizational partnership I don't think I, in my mind, I don't separate that too much from personal partnerships or relationships. Because I think. Real human relationships are at the foundation of any business partnership you know, organizational partnership. Obviously, there's more formal things that happen in an organizational partnership. And those things are important. But I think it all starts with getting to know each other getting you know what's what's in your heart, what's in your mind. What got you to like, that's a big question I ask people. It's like tell me tell me what Like what you're doing now, what? What are the dots that are that connect that got you to where you are? How can you? Because I have the other like in my mind I'm like there are like four or five key things that I'm like I would never be where I was if it wasn't for this one conversation of someone say, hey, do you? You should meet so-and-so. And meeting so-and-so change the trajectory of my life. You know? so yeah I think yeah it just takes time and quality relationships listening learning from each other And then. You know, so there's some more formal things that, I like I said, that I think need to happen you know, when it's more of on the organizational side of things. And I learned. I learned from not. Having some of those formal things in place. You know where it's like oh you can't just rely on the Hey, I love you. You love me we We're cool with each other. You know, there's some... important things that need to you know take shape as well. RJ Caswell: Right. Well, in Even hearing you say that, coming back to... known and be known, right? I know it We use that a lot. I've heard it forever, but I think there's so much. Truth behind it. When you look back... Who would you say? Believed in you. Before you really believed in yourself or saw something in Bill Cummings. That Bill Cummings did not necessarily see in himself. Until later. Bill Cummings: Yeah. Bye. My high school basketball coach. So I mean, first I'll say I'm. I don't know what to say Short average height, you know a little below average height RJ Caswell: Yes! I was about to say, I never saw you as a hooper. That's great. Bill Cummings: Right, probably because you didn't see me as a tall guy. But but I mean, funny thing. I would For some reason, I picked... In the program, on the basketball program, you know, like I got handed out every game. I got listed as five, nine and a half. And I And I'm probably barely above 5'8". RJ Caswell: And a half, of course. Bill Cummings: But I just needed to be, like, I don't know why. It's like, I can't really, I can't say 5'10". People are going to know I'm not 5'10" but they'll believe five, nine and a half, you know. RJ Caswell: It's like with the recruiting, everybody's going to inflate it, right? Bill Cummings: But... Yeah. Right. Yeah. Exactly. RJ Caswell: You thought you were getting recruited is all it was. Bill Cummings: Yeah. Yeah. Right. Yeah. I ran a you know, 4.2 40. Yeah So. I'm slow. I'm not tall. But I loved basketball growing up. I would just shoot. Hoops like endlessly, you know. And was decent enough to make the team every year at a small you know public high school. And just like gym rat type guy just like shooting around practice was over I'd be there for another hour you know tell my dad like wait to pick me up until you know 6 30 because you know I want to shoot more with some friends My basketball coach, you know. Just believe he just did he just believed in me And. And always like Hey, Cummings you can do it man you can do it like come on like You know, just encourage me like Hey, keep your elbow in on your foul shots, you know. And and it kind of culminated in Me, I don't know. This is going to be another old reference. There was this Boston Celtics player named M.L. Carr during during their like the 80s Larry Bird run. RJ Caswell: That was a few years ago. Yeah, yeah a few years ago. Bill Cummings: Several, several, yeah. And I'll never forget him on the sidelines. He was later in his career, but he was like waving the towel as a team. He's on the bench, you know. And. And. That was me. I was like, you know, on the bench, like I got, you know. Scrap minutes you know if we're up by 25 coach put me in for the last minute and a half or something like that you know but I was like cheering my team on our captain was like he was a negative guy And the coach would always get on his case. You're the best player on the team, man. You got to be more positive. Be like Cummings. Look at him, you know. RJ Caswell: Be like Cummings. Bill Cummings: Yeah. And then. And then my senior year. We had the award ceremony and my coach called me up and announced me as the MVP of the team. And I was like. What the heck, man? Like, I don't like I. RJ Caswell: That had to be total shock. Total shock. Bill Cummings: Total shock. Total shock. Because I'm like... Hi. I get scrap minutes. I get like, you know. I don't. I don't get in the game barely you know what is What is going on here? And then he just kind of gave a short little speech like, you know, about my positivity and teamwork and, you know like lifting other people up and stuff and I'm Like, why? Yeah, that I think that is me. I think I am somebody who's an encourager and cares about other people. I had friends in high school who are so different like you know the people who are sport you know guys and then guys with like leather belts and like chain hanging up from you know their wallet in their pocket kind of like just different people RJ Caswell: We were in the grunge era, so yes. Bill Cummings: And the Right, right. So Yeah, I think that' that's my... Yeah, that's my reference. RJ Caswell: How has that experience... shape relationships and partnerships going forward then I mean to be Shocked at that age that somebody noticed something about you that you didn't. Truly take notice in yourself. You're just being you, is my guess, right? You're being a Bill. Bill Cummings: I'm like, yeah. RJ Caswell: Only thing you need to do. Bill Cummings: Wasn't trying to be something or Hey, let me, let me, I mean, and when you're that young, you're not thinking like what you should be. You're just trying to you know just Figure yourself out, you know. Yeah, I think it. It. Just that you know, being. Notice they're being seen you know, being like. Oh wow This guy's got something to offer. And getting recognized for that was, yeah, set set a tone, I think. One of my favorite movies of all time and I wrote a I wrote something about this in the title of like it was either a LinkedIn post or a blog post or something like that five years ago. Like the title of it was what makes you cry It was all about this movie that I that I saw called CODA, C-O-D-A I can't think of the acronym, but it's something's it's something I wish I could remember it because it's related to. People who. Can't hear you know people who are deaf Because the story focused on a... young lady at high school student who had an incredible voice, and she was the only hearing person in her family. Her brother and her parents were both deaf. So she would sign with them and like they couldn't even hear her sing. They didn't even understand that she had this gift and kind of discouraged it but she was like incredible singer so she I think it was either like Berklee you know school of music or something like that but she went for some tryout All because her high school, like, you know, music teacher saw something in her. And Like, Hey, you can do this. You can do this. But the family is like, we need your help at home. We, you can't do like, we need you to like. Communicate for us, you know? And and this guy who believed in her I remember sobbing you know because she's you know I don't want to ruin the story for those who go see the movie it's a great it's a great movie yeah go see CODA but it's like someone believed in her and just like RJ Caswell: Yes Go see CODA. Go see CODA. Yeah. Bill Cummings: And. And... encourage her to do something that she probably wouldn't had. Done if it wasn't for that one person saying like man you should go for it You know you should pursue this. You know. RJ Caswell: So I... Hearing that, it does, even knowing you're different career professional journeys, we'll say it that way. That makes a lot of sense for knowing. What I know about you and even my interactions and friendship developed over the years as somebody who is. Really focused on... others. And even more so, I would take it a step further. The Bill Cummings I know is really focused on... Those that could be marginalized or who maybe don't have a voice for themselves or haven't found their voice yet because of life. Which I've always really appreciated about you. So if we kind of carry that to present day. I mean... you've You've worked in a church. You started and led an international nonprofit. You've worked for another non large nonprofit in New York. And now you're... I'm going to use the title CEO because you are leading this for-profit venture, but really supporting the work of... charities and nonprofits doing the hard work on the front lines. Tell me what that's been like stepping into a similar field, but it's a you know it's a business. And so you have the business aspects, but you're also... I know helping shape. The trajectories of these other nonprofits. Bill Cummings: Yeah. Yeah, I think, you know, just my experience of leading a nonprofit organization, and I wish I knew earlier on. Because when I started that nonprofit organization in 2008 you know and we met just like a year or so after that There was so much I didn't know, you know, being in church leadership and then leading a nonprofit, you know and raising funds all of that you know in church you've got a captive audience and usually like an offering plate or bucket that's being passed. There's no offering there's no Sunday gathering where all your donors are there in the same room and can You know. Give their offerings. So that was a whole different experience. And then And then also you know I wish I would have known earlier on that Like, you know, I said to people all the time, like nonprofits doesn't mean that you're not running a business. It should be run like a business there's business principles that you need to employ. And it took me a while to come around to that and then now leading a for-profit business I. There was a lot to learn there, too. You know, it's like I learned the business aspects that were needed in the nonprofit sector are in a nonprofit leadership role. But a lot of that still didn't quite translate. I had We had a fractional CFO that was working with us, probably. Two years in to starting Liminal. So we've we've been around for five years now. And about two years in, things were going fairly well. So we're like, hey, we need somebody to help us manage our finances. And he looked at our budget and he was like, hey, you're organizing your budget. It looks like a nonprofit budget you know, like real. Simple, like just simple. RJ Caswell: Makes sense. Bill Cummings: And like, you're not thinking right. RJ Caswell: Nonprofit guy, yeah. Bill Cummings: Right. Right. You're not thinking like a business. You got to like EBITDA. I was like, what's EBITDA? You know, EBI, TDA. What is that? in these you know learning these acronyms and different things. So yeah, that was a learning curve there. But yeah, the connection with... having led a nonprofit. And the back I think the dot that I want to connect here is. The reason we're able to do what we do as a branding agency and messaging and marketing agency and communications work that we do with nonprofits is because I had the. Honor of leading a nonprofit that supported local leaders in Guatemala City who are running all of the programs. Most nonprofit leaders you know have to oversee the fundraising the back office stuff and make sure that the programs are running smoothly. RJ Caswell: Program. Bill Cummings: Right. Like in. And we kind of stumbled into this model that allowed me and our team in the US to focus on storytelling and marketing and branding and making sure that we were you know, doing our work that in a way that gave dignity to the people, not gave the dignity, but like elevated their dignity. RJ Caswell: Elevated it Right. Bill Cummings: In the hearts and minds of people here in the United States you know and so telling stories you know thinking about dignified storytelling and how you like, hey, don't talk about people. You know, or exploit their story or exploit their poverty you know, talk about them like You know, if you're going to tell a story of them, tell the story as though they're sitting right next to you. Would you say what you're saying about them if they were sitting right in the room? So like all of that stuff. RJ Caswell: What a filter. What a filter that right there. Is going to... is going to set some people back and some nonprofit leaders back. Bill Cummings: Right. Right. Yeah, that's I mean, I think that's huge. RJ Caswell: I mean... Bill Cummings: I And I learned that even more working in New York City with an organization called Restore NYC. They serve women who... foreign national adult women who'd been trafficked into New York City. And the women who the late, the, the. Social workers and people on the staff were vigilant with us on the fundraising team like do not exploit their stories you know they had such a like guardrails around, you know, how we could talk about you know the... the women that were were being served there. So I think that's really important. But yes, since we... did that was my role was storytelling and branding and thinking about how are we telling these stories And. And. It was like a natural thing, you know, and I started working these like side jobs. People were asking, hey, I love how what you're doing, how you present your organization, the look, the feel, the photography, the storytelling. Your messaging is all super clear. Can you help us with our... you know, stuff along those lines because I always say you go to a non-profit website and you're like If it. Like, I'm curious to know what they do. And I'm spending time on their website for like five minutes. I'm like, I have no idea what they even do. You know. And I'm trying to, I'm trying to. Fine I want to know you know not everybody has that level of you know of interest so yeah just you know that so I started doing that and then Long story, a business partner, longtime friend of mine, and I... hey let's merge these you know consulting practices that we have into this business and You know, now we get to serve nonprofits and basically do what I was doing in the organization I led. Doing a lot of that, you know walking alongside of nonprofits and helping them you know tell a clear story a story that's compelling and elevating their work you know we say why do all the tech bros have to have all the cool design and you know, the good branding and messaging nonprofits should you know, should be elevated you know, and respected just as much or if not more. RJ Caswell: Absolutely. Absolutely agree with that. What I love hearing about your story is you really have taken so much of your experience doing and now are able to multiply that to many. Which I think is just a great. Piece to learn from that whether it was at the church or at... the international nonprofit and telling stories. You were telling stories for the organization you ran. But now you get to help. Many tell stories based on your experience and who you are. So you've multiplied yourself, which I think is... is awesome. Bill Cummings: Yeah, I appreciate you seeing that. And I love that. I love the opportunity to work with So many different organizations working internationally in the United States And, you know. Even when we're having, so you know sales calls. And it doesn't go like, doesn't lead to business. I'm like. Man, I'm so grateful I got to learn about your organization and that. Now I know you exist. And that's an honor to just know that you're doing what you're doing, serving the community that you're serving. That's, you know. And then when we do get to work together the opportunity to help them tell their story in a way that draws people in and increases their capacity to have an impact. You know and among the people they serve that's yeah it's RJ Caswell: Well, it's... It's so awesome to see and know where you are now and the work you get to do. And in fact, of course, we'll have... All your contact information in the show notes if anybody wants to. Reach out to you to hear more of your story or get in touch with Liminal. We'll have all that down in the show notes for people to learn and hopefully connect with you there as well, because you're doing such great work. And so I want to make sure we highlight that as well. But... As we come. Towards the end. Right. I promise you 30 minutes where we're closing in on that. And I want to honor everybody who's listening that we're going to try to always keep this to around 30 minutes. So maybe that's your commute or workout or a walk or whatever it might be. But the critical question, right The critical question is. Bill Cummings is in the grocery store. You're going down the breakfast aisle. And you have nothing, you know you have nothing at home you have There's nothing in the grocery. I mean, nothing in your refrigerator. And so... You've already got your milk in your cart. Or if you're in the South, you say buggy. And. You're looking at the cereal. What cereal? Are you picking? For dinner. It's an important question because hopefully over the next year, we're going to, you know. Bill Cummings: It is an important question. RJ Caswell: Assimilate all this data and be able to you know produce a huge. Meaningful report to society around cereal choices. Bill Cummings: Cereal choices RJ Caswell: Yeah. It's big so Bill Cummings: It's a huge question and so important and relevant to our lives in this moment that we're living in. RJ Caswell: Truth. Couldn't have said it better myself. It's so important we name the podcast after it. Bill Cummings: Yeah. I mean... I'm gonna have to go Honeycomb. Honeycombs. Honeycombs? RJ Caswell: Honeycomb. Yeah. Bill Cummings: Honeycomb? That's how long it's been today. RJ Caswell: Well, we're going to have to really find check. Bill Cummings: We'll have to check. We'll have to check that. RJ Caswell: We're going to have to fact check. Bill Cummings: It's pretty bad if it's my favorite cereal and I don't know if it has an S on the end or not. RJ Caswell: Yeah. Yeah. You should. We will fact check that for everybody. But Honeycomb, all right. There you have it, everybody. That is what. Bill is having... for dinner. Bill Cummings: Honeycomb big, yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't know if anybody remembers the jingle. RJ Caswell: Oh, do. Oh yeah! We will have so many throwbacks, I think, throughout this. So awesome. Honeycomb it is. Bill, man, I appreciate you coming on. Bill Cummings: There you have it. RJ Caswell: Appreciate your journey and who you are. Bill Cummings: Yeah, I appreciate you, RJ. Yeah, really appreciate it. Thanks for the opportunity to have the conversation with you.