Phil Fontaine on Building a People-Centered Career

RJ Caswell: Well, welcome to the Cereal for Dinner podcast. I'm super excited to have... Good friend of mine, Phil Fontaine, on the podcast this time. Phil, welcome. Phil Fontaine: Yeah, thanks for having me, RJ. RJ Caswell: I'm super excited for a couple reasons. But one of them is, you know, your focus on people and relationships and almost everything you do. um And so that's always been intriguing to me to go, gosh. What? What happened in Phil at some point in his life to go, This is kind of my... Treat you. career trajectory, can't speak today, career trajectory. but Because I know you spent a season... in recruiting, which is all about people. Now you've turned a lot of that into executive leadership coaching, team coaching, which is all... Phil Fontaine: Mm-hmm. RJ Caswell: People? ah um Relationships, emotions, all that comes with that. with with dealing with people, as well as faith-driven jobs in your work there. Phil Fontaine: right RJ Caswell: so Where I wanted to start was, if you think back on... your life and career and this could go back as young as you want it to. Where did you start? realizing this I want my work. to take shape around people, around relationships. Was there... A person, experience, a job that... you Or what did that look like for you? to kind of go This is the trajectory I want to take. Phil Fontaine: Yeah, that's a really good question I don't know if there was like one clear moment. It was obvious even when I was really little. I do get my energy from people. So, for example, Sarah, my wife and I, last week, we had something after work every day. last week, whether it was you know ministry stuff or whatever it may be. And at the end of the week, you know my cup is still full. and the energy is good we even had a wedding welcome party and wedding friday saturday right And she's completely out of it. and so She's recharging this week. RJ Caswell: Trade. Yeah. Phil Fontaine: I think we have. she has one thing on the calendar after work this week um but it was just at a young age i just knew that uh people gave me energy i've always been very interested RJ Caswell: Huh. Phil Fontaine: in people just kind of gravitated towards you know team settings Always liked group projects, whatever it may be. And just always found people very interesting, what makes them tick. and uh yeah it's I also, I mean, I went to school for finance and econ, but I was terrible at math. So that kind of. RJ Caswell: What? Phil Fontaine: put Kind of pushed it. RJ Caswell: That's not your normal route for you know relationship-focused careers, econ and math. Phil Fontaine: Yeah. Yeah. RJ Caswell: So let's talk about that and a little bit in college, if you're you know in school for that. well What happened in school to realize, okay, I still want to take a career trajectory that was... Because you found, you at some point, like you said, you knew you got energy from people and relationships. Phil Fontaine: Mm hmm. RJ Caswell: Um, Not that my finance friends can't be that way at all. I know some that are. But a lot of them aren't. so When you're in school and college at that age and stage, What were you thinking about? This is what I want to do. Phil Fontaine: In college? Yeah. So I... RJ Caswell: Yeah. Phil Fontaine: i was good at econ i really liked econ except for econometrics when it gets really technical so i really like that and finance was an easy double major i've always liked business and so that felt like it went hand in hand. RJ Caswell: Go home. Phil Fontaine: Um, But and I actually do think very operationally and analytically. RJ Caswell: yeah Phil Fontaine: So I thought that that might carry over a little bit more than it did. But, you know, when I was applying for jobs senior year of college and I'd interview for sales jobs and that seemed a lot of fun. I interviewed for financial analyst jobs or things of that nature and I just couldn't see it happening. No. RJ Caswell: So that so as some of the interview process revealed some of that. like okay, I could be an analyst and maybe sit. in an office or a cubicle even. Or I could be sales, which is. right, with people. I mean, it's hard to be in sales without understanding people. and to your point, getting energy from relationships. So let's back up then. where We already kind of went, you know, mid-career college and then early career. What was your... first job then. I'd be fascinated to hear like, what was your first? Real job. How old were you? What were you doing? What was that role? Phil Fontaine: So like pre-college? RJ Caswell: Yeah, yeah. Phil Fontaine: or pre-graduation yeah Um, outside of just landscaping here and there. First real job was after freshman year of high school as a lifeguard at Carmel Country Club. RJ Caswell: Okay. And here's Charlotte, yes. Phil Fontaine: Yeah. Yeah, I did that. one summer. Because you weren't really. RJ Caswell: So just one. Okay. Phil Fontaine: You weren't really supposed to talk to people or be distracted. And. outside of a nice tan and being at a you know, beautiful Carmel country club. RJ Caswell: Yeah. Phil Fontaine: It was wasn't much else to it. I was a little too active back then to like sitting around in a chair. So. RJ Caswell: sitting in a chair for whatever, 50 minutes or whatever that rotation is. Phil Fontaine: Yeah. RJ Caswell: Yeah, it might have been hard. hard for you. Phil Fontaine: Yeah. RJ Caswell: um So that actually might have shaped to go, yeah, I can't be isolated here for. Phil Fontaine: At the desk. RJ Caswell: this amount of time um a and knowing that. Phil Fontaine: yeah okay RJ Caswell: People's lives are kind of at stake if I'm not. Phil Fontaine: Right. RJ Caswell: paying attention. uh Yeah, always a good motivator. All right, so what what about after that? So lifeguard first, what was your next job? Phil Fontaine: Moving company. landscape and stuff. where for In college, I worked for a furniture organization. Um... And just was traveling around Northport and Tuscaloosa assembling furniture and putting up art pieces and stuff like that. so That's really it until after college. Yeah, even my one internship With the private equity firm didn't even happen. I got sent back home from London didn't have a work So yeah. RJ Caswell: Oh Ma! Phil Fontaine: Yeah, so really just nothing formal. RJ Caswell: So you got all the way to londonda and had to you got all the way to London and had to come back. Phil Fontaine: Mhm. Yep. RJ Caswell: That's... Somebody missed a gap somewhere. Maybe that's a tangent for for another day. but Phil Fontaine: Yeah, yeah. I can go deeper on that another time. RJ Caswell: yeah Phil Fontaine: but RJ Caswell: so So out of college, you did not go the analyst path then? um share Share with everybody what what that path looked like then. Phil Fontaine: Yeah, I joined. um It was a company that I connected with my senior year of college and they brought me on to outside sales. They call themselves. a tech company. It was really more centered around travel entertainment. And then I graduate 2019, so COVID hit that following March. And it was just kind of writing on the wall, right? They furloughed a bunch of folks. I pretty much spent that spring. turkey hunting in Alabama, Mississippi. with some with some fraternity brothers, just waiting on you know when we could really work again. RJ Caswell: ah Phil Fontaine: And then eventually decided to move back to Charlotte that July 2020. Took a... decided to make a move in august to a recruiting firm and that began my recruiting career that i've been doing for Six years now. RJ Caswell: Well, tell us a little bit about that that recruiting piece because I know a lot of people think, right, it is relationships. for Recruiting is a lot more than just. um networking. Um, How did that fit for you? Because it does take some sales, but it also takes really good people skills and analytical skills. How did that come together for you? what What was some learnings in that early stage stepping into your first recruiting? world. Phil Fontaine: Yeah, it's a good question. So the first one just kind of taught me the basics of what it was. I made a quick move. um seven eight months later to a more boutique agency that's grown a lot since then um but kind of it was kind of a staple around charlotte so i was there for about five years And I'd say the biggest lessons that I learned earlier on then. I still hear it ringing in my ears. is when did this become about you? And so when you're working with. RJ Caswell: Oh. Phil Fontaine: people and you're guiding them through decisions one of the biggest decisions of their lives right who you marry where you go to school where you live what you do for your career And so you're guiding people through that career discussion. and you're starting to think about well how does this affect me or you know that commission check right And so just kind of getting that drilled into me. yeah When did this become about you? And the answer is it never was. Right, so. RJ Caswell: Wow, yeah. Phil Fontaine: twenty five I turned my first week there. so at 25 26 years old like just i'd say that was the biggest lesson going on but What's interesting and how it plays in what I'm doing now is I got to see what things looked like on the inside in a corporate setting. and I also got to hear perspectives from thousands, literally thousands of people. deep conversations about What about this system is serving you and not serving you? What about this is life giving versus it's really taking away from what you were, you know, what you're here to do. Right. and so that's that really fed into and kind of kind of the impetus of what i'm doing now RJ Caswell: Well, let's talk a little bit about now. Then I want to take a tangent here and in a few minutes and and capitalize back on relationships. but Phil Fontaine: Mm hmm. RJ Caswell: pivoting a little bit from recruiting into... um team development, leadership development, coaching. what What are some things you're hearing from the people you work with that? They're either struggling with personally or organizationally in companies that have caused you to to learn or grow or go, these are things I need to pay attention to. What would you say? Um, to you know to those people who were. ah potential app clients one day. Phil Fontaine: Yeah, so that's a loaded question. It's a really good one because it varies a lot. If you're talking about what's common, a lot of times it's boundaries. RJ Caswell: Yeah. Phil Fontaine: A lot of time it's their worth is tied up with their work and what they do or their title. RJ Caswell: oh Phil Fontaine: right So it's working through that. Um, A lot of what I'm working on with. teams now and in one on one, but with teams now is team identity. And so building that foundational block of. Who are we? Well, who who am I individually? And who are we as a team? And how does that was that look like in its current state? and what's what's the desired state and then we explore that gap in between. to try to hit that desired state. And the reason being is um You know ah how Michelangelo was his most famous statue is David. RJ Caswell: Yeah. Phil Fontaine: right and so it's the chipping away of the marble and there's that quote that he didn't really say but it's always attributed to him Where it's like, you know all I had to do was chip away everything that wasn't David. And so that's pretty much the. the process there that's what i'm trying to get at with everyone that i'm coaching is chipping away all the interference, right all the things that don't belong. to um to pretty much unlock their potential. RJ Caswell: That seems like a a big undertaking for maybe people who have already tied their work. to their identity. Phil Fontaine: Yeah. Yeah. it's It's a lot of. It's a lot of peeling back on learning a lot. I mean, a lot of this I've done myself, which is in still doing on myself, which is why I have such a passion for it. Um, But yeah, it's a lot of unlearning habits, a lot of peeling things back. and and knowing where your worth really comes from. RJ Caswell: Which, gosh, that could be an entire... entire segment right there, where does worth come from? Phil Fontaine: Yeah. It might take a while. RJ Caswell: And but for us, but and and knowing you the way you do, and you know me as well, right? A lot of that is rooted in our faith and what we believe about God and image of God. Phil Fontaine: Yep. RJ Caswell: Um, And even with that, It's a constant battle. Right. On identity and and who I am and who you are. So... Let's take a little bit of a turn. and um go back knowing Kind of the shape. your career trajectory has taken. Who who are those formative? people, and it could be one person, it could be multiple people. early on who you would go, man, that person or these people poured into me or believed in me before I believed in myself or showed me something about myself that I needed to learn. Are there a few people um that you can think back? Phil Fontaine: Yeah. RJ Caswell: And that again, that could be... At an early age, that could be high school, college, could have been last week, i don I don't know. But usually there's a few people. most of us can go, man, that person was either a mentor or spoke in to me or spoke something into me that I needed to hear. Phil Fontaine: Hmm. Yeah, yeah Probably a common answer you get because you like to ask that question. RJ Caswell: Hmm. Phil Fontaine: his parents right even though they didn't they said also a lot of things that might make me think oh maybe they don't believe in me they always I knew that they always They always knew that I was going to figure it out. RJ Caswell: Yeah. Phil Fontaine: Um, They always knew that i could if I wanted to do something, I could go do it. And they always had that confidence, like, well. I was very independent especially back then. They just had that confidence kind of at any age. well you know phillips philip can figure it out and he'll be okay and you know they'll be kind of there as a sounding board or support through that. So that's been great. um As far as in career. Was... Without a doubt, Matt Thomas. RJ Caswell: and Phil Fontaine: um he was my boss at this recruiting agency for three years we've remained extremely close since then he's actually getting married this saturday that's why i'm heading out Oh. on Friday. so He's a... I mean, he poured a lot into me. And... um Man, I mean, talking about Beloved Identity that we were talking about earlier, I mean, that's he really instilled that. with the team I was on. when we work together. And that kind of changed everything. I mean, he helped. really walk me back to my walk with Christ. And that changed everything. So I would 100 % attribute it to him. RJ Caswell: So... Knowing that, then, what what would you say? to, um, Someone now, knowing you kind of had your parents' influence on your life, Matt, it seems like... very instrumental in not only career, but personal life, how how you view yourself and who you are, especially ah a rooted identity in Christ. What would you say to you know an early stage? Phil now or somebody else who's maybe a junior in college. Maybe they're a senior in high school. Maybe they're just graduating college and they have. No idea what's going on. What what type of... Phil Fontaine: Yeah. RJ Caswell: I hesitate to use the word advice, but advice or words would you share with somebody in that situation? Because I do know you already pour into the next generation. already. Phil Fontaine: Mm hmm. RJ Caswell: So something tells me you're already doing a lot of this. But what would you do? What would you share to yourself or somebody else in that? early stage. Phil Fontaine: Yeah, if it was me like Thinking back to what I was really struggling with and what I was broke what i broke free from. is it's not all up to me. And God's got the night shift. And stop white knuckling. RJ Caswell: ah So what is that? Phil Fontaine: Don't hang on too tight. RJ Caswell: So... So if somebody says, oh, okay, that's good. How? What would you say? Phil Fontaine: Yeah. RJ Caswell: How do I do that? Phil Fontaine: Man, that is a trusting process in obedience and I think a lot of times it's how our faith is measured, or I think that's probably the ultimate measure, right, is our obedience. Um, And it's just trusting that. God is going to see you through things. you know the efforts belong to us but the results belong to him and once we come to that agreement Um, I've given harder effort. without believing that God's got the result handled. and Baird and Borg. very little if any fruit. And I've. you know given good effort knowing that God's going to come through. And he blesses that. Um, in ways more than I could have imagined. So. RJ Caswell: Wow. Phil Fontaine: Yeah. Yeah. Without. RJ Caswell: Okay. so Yeah. Phil Fontaine: specific right but RJ Caswell: No, that's great. I think people will resonate with that. for sure. So now... So tell me about... what what this looks like for you. um five, ten years from now. Phil Fontaine: oh wow Man. So that's a really good question. And it's interesting because I feel like. I've really developed being present over the last handful of years. And I don't want to say I don't think that far, but when I'm... what i know i'm building towards right now is... I believe in we is better than me. Yeah. RJ Caswell: Okay. Phil Fontaine: Having an ecosystem. RJ Caswell: Yeah, that... Phil Fontaine: is very important. and building community were built to be relational. Right. And I think that's very important. And so what I'm where I see myself. is almost like you RJ, I mean you're such a super connector. And it's amazing how, you know, you meet someone, you just know. like who to connect them with. I'm trying to draw more lines like that. If I'm not the best person. for to work with you help you whatever it is on this one thing which In a lot of cases, I'm not going to be. um in most right I want to be able to connect you with the right person. so it's part of what you and i talks about with fake jobs we won't go into a ton of that here but um That's... so what i really see in myself is being more of that connector in the next five to ten years um through different ministries, corporately. Um... Yeah. faith family-wise community RJ Caswell: and Phil Fontaine: It's just here around me. So I don't know if that answers your question, but. that's That's what's been mapped out in my mind, especially over the last probably six months here. is just expanding this ecosystem. of RJ Caswell: Oh, no, I think, no, it definitely resonates with me. Obviously, networking resonates with me in connecting people, but I do think there's... Right. it's It's never connecting, at least. for me, and I know for you, and and that's not what you're saying, is it's for a purpose. Phil Fontaine: Right. RJ Caswell: And so, yeah, thinking five, 10 years out that you were able to leverage. who you are, the people God's put in front of you. to connect them with other people, that makes a lot of sense knowing you that the the way I do. um What are some learnings that you would take? for for you to take the k next step in that? Like, what would that look like from... oh gosh, I need to remember this person I met or this person. Is that really intentional or is that something that is just evolving for you and how you make those connections? Phil Fontaine: It is evolving in the sense of. um How? by By giving it to God, right? And so just having him work through it. um and how he wants to raise up. those connections. as opposed to i feel like especially as men right like we jump into oh i can solve this or fix this now Uh, RJ Caswell: ye Phil Fontaine: I hope I'm not getting too far off topic here. Bye. realistically what's it looked like for me since having these discussions and thoughts and since I've been building towards this. is going to God first, even when someone reaches out. um This happens to you a lot. someone reaches out hey can you essentially it's an ask right like hey can you me out with something RJ Caswell: Hmm. Right. Phil Fontaine: And I want to jump to, yes, because I'm Phil. I can help you. right instead of RJ Caswell: Right. Phil Fontaine: Hey, God. RJ Caswell: Which is still a good reaction, which, i yeah, I do it right, that you do it to serve, yeah. Phil Fontaine: like Yeah, yeah, yeah, like that's good. But like, what would it look like if it's got like... Should I even respond right now? Right. Like, is this is this the point in time? Is this a conversation that you're just beginning? and something's going to come much much much much later Um, you know why asking like why do you want this conversation to happen like why you know what And part of that's conversating with the person, like, why is this person reaching out now? Like, you want me to know about that past just what I'm reading in this ask? That's just an example. But it's just making us look great. RJ Caswell: Well, I think what resonates with me even hearing you say that is why you... Phil Fontaine: Thanks. RJ Caswell: I think that's why you're a good coach. definitely a you know a leadership coach, is you're peeling back layers, even in an initial ask from somebody, and you're not coaching them. But I definitely know why you're... you're a good coach is because your first... reaction to that question I asked. was being intentional. That's right. Phil Fontaine: Yeah. RJ Caswell: Asking a clarifying question, asking another question. That's something I need to do better. um even hearing you say that, I'm like, oh gosh, yeah. sometimes i just react really quick and let me let me connect real quick instead of pausing. Phil Fontaine: Yeah, it's taking a step back. and You know? And it sounds weird. It's going to sound weird to a lot of people. And that's perfectly okay. RJ Caswell: No, I think what you're saying makes a lot of sense. It's something I'm already going to take away from this. is that pause can be really important. Um, And. um I think. Knowing you the way I do and seeing that going, oh yeah, okay. Phil's going to really challenge some people because I know they want to quit. reaction to, and what you're doing is trying to uncover what's behind that. Um, that I wonder if that' some of that came from your recruiting background as well. There's always something behind that. because Phil Fontaine: Yeah. RJ Caswell: In recruiting, I know you're working for the company, for that person who's looking for their next thing. Right. There's stress. I mean, that's why you and I partnered on Faith Driven Jobs. Phil Fontaine: Mm hmm. RJ Caswell: on. the person looking, because it can be lonely. It can be isolated. Phil Fontaine: Yeah. RJ Caswell: You can question identity. You can have all those pieces wrapped up. um You feel. um you know discouraged. And you just want to quit. network or a quick connection, but having somebody like you pausing. and asking that next question. I think can actually be very enlightening. Phil Fontaine: yeah Yeah, I was definitely referred to as a skeptic. So I always had a lot of questions and then especially around motivation and all that. RJ Caswell: yeah Phil Fontaine: but Yeah. RJ Caswell: Yeah. So... um We've covered a lot, but if... If you were looking... um in that networking space now. And you were giving so advice to somebody who was trying to figure out. how to network. Phil Fontaine: Hmm. RJ Caswell: Do you have advice for somebody? like How do you do this thing? Because some people have a very negative reaction. to networking or meeting people. And and so we can kind of strip that language out of it. But what advice you have for somebody who... Phil Fontaine: Yeah. RJ Caswell: does need to figure out how to expand their relational network. Phil Fontaine: Yeah, and i and I totally get it. a lot of people don't want to go to net certain you know network events whatever it is because of the way that it's done now right like a lot of it can feel superficial RJ Caswell: okay Phil Fontaine: I'd say there's a a ton that I would definitely say no to. Right. And then there's some. with a purpose where it's like it feels like i should be there you know there's people i want to meet and like this is why as far so First thing would be like, you got to get out there and do it. um RJ Caswell: oh Phil Fontaine: and that doesn't mean you have to sign up for a group you know and go there to every single event and this and that if it's not serving. you know If you don't feel like you're producing anything and you're not really getting anything from it. Then. That makes sense. um but i think first thing is just getting out there and actually being intentional and making those connections re thinking about other people and reaching out to them proactively right. as opposed to just kind of like waiting for things to come or showing up at an event without talking to anyone first and just kind of wondering who's going to come up to you. That doesn't really work. RJ Caswell: Which we've all done at some point. Phil Fontaine: scott yeah Yeah. RJ Caswell: yeah Phil Fontaine: But as far as actual advice, um People want to help. Uh, And I'm thinking about the job searching as well. RJ Caswell: oh Phil Fontaine: People want to help. You just have to slice the apples. If you're very specific make things easy for people to remember. And almost not. I don't wanna say tagline. but almost something like when you're talking to someone you want them to take away from that conversation whenever they hear this from someone else some other source they read something whatever They think of RJ. right Does that make sense? RJ Caswell: That does. Yeah, it's gold. man That's fantastic. Phil Fontaine: Yeah. So slice the apples, make it easy on them. RJ Caswell: when When I hear a couple things... Yes, I like that, slicing the apples. Phil Fontaine: Yeah. RJ Caswell: ah But it's being intentional, right? Being intentional with that person and their time. But also what I heard too was like, you got to practice. You got to get out there and and do it. It's not going to just... come to you. And for some of that, people come naturally. for others. It really is. You got to be uncomfortable, I think is what you're saying, and and just step into it. And this is why I say apples. I love that. Love it. Phil Fontaine: Yeah, make it easy. RJ Caswell: Well, it's like... Phil Fontaine: People want to help if you make it easy. RJ Caswell: Well, and so that's a great segue as we kind of... Turn this and land the plane, making it easy. When I think of an easy dinner. I think of something like... Cereal. Um, And so we're going to play out a scenario. You've heard this scenario before. um Sarah, and the kids are away and so you're by yourself and you do want an easy dinner. um Not just slicing the apples. You need something else more than that. and so Phil Fontaine: Yeah. RJ Caswell: You're at the grocery store. And you're on this aisle in a sea of cereal boxes. Because we've all been down. There's like 4 ,000 options now. Phil Fontaine: Yep. RJ Caswell: What cereal are you picking off the shelf at the grocery store? for dinner, Phil. Phil Fontaine: Yeah, I haven't had cereal in years But I can say without a doubt, no question. Captain Crunchberries. RJ Caswell: Captain Crunch Berries. Phil Fontaine: yeah RJ Caswell: Yes. Well, first of all, what's awesome about this answer is you haven't had Cedar in a while, but you knew exactly where you were going with it. Phil Fontaine: Oh yeah. RJ Caswell: So there you go. Love it. Man, I appreciate the time and thank you for being on the show. Phil Fontaine: Yeah, I appreciate you. Love you, RJ. Thanks for your time, man. RJ Caswell: Appreciate it.